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Matt Mattsonmoderator
Member since 4-21-02
1846 posts		 06-04-05, 09:19 AM (MDT)
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"FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
 
"Florida Isolated Finds Form -- IMPORTANT!"

Those of you that visit other scuba and treasure forums please distribute the below information so people aren't caught napping. Thank You. Matt Mattson http://www.treasuresites.com Be careful! They will catch a lot of people napping by discontinuing the Isolated Finds forms . . .

May 25, 2005

Dear Friends of Florida Archaeology:

The Florida Historical Commission, at its May 21, 2005 meeting, considered three options regarding the Isolated Finds Program currently operated by the Division of Historical Resources. The Commission reviewed input received since its last meeting on April 7, 2005 and heard testimony from interested parties. The options considered were identified by the Bureau of Archaeological Research, namely: 1) discontinue the Isolated Finds Program, with no substitute program to take its place; 2) formalize the existing Isolated Finds Program guidelines as an agency rule with little or no modification; 3) develop a new permit-based program for river collecting formalized by the rule making process. The Commission, acting in its statutorily constituted role to provide assistance, advice, and recommendations to the Division in establishing priorities for the identification, acquisition, protection, and preservation of historic and archaeological sites and properties (§ 267.0612, Florida Statutes), unanimously supported Option 1, and recommended that the Division discontinue the Isolated Finds Program.
The Division and Bureau of Archaeological Research have reviewed and accepted the recommendation of the Florida Historical Commission. Beginning June 1, 2005, the Division will discontinue the Isolated Finds Program (see § 267.115(9), Florida Statutes, which states that “the division may implement a program to administer finds of isolated historic artifacts from state-owned river bottoms whereby the division may transfer ownership of such artifacts to the finder in exchange for information about the artifacts and the circumstances and location of their discovery”). Removal of artifacts from sovereign submerged lands will no longer be allowed after that date; removal of artifacts from river bottoms and other sovereign submerged lands will be a first degree misdemeanor under § 267.13(1)(a), Florida Statutes. The Division will accept Isolated Finds reporting forms through July 1, 2005. For additional information visit the Isolated Finds Program website at: http://www.flheritage.com/archaeology/underwater/finds/.
Please note that all data reported through the Isolated Finds Program since 1996 is open to scholars and other interested individuals for public inspection. Further, the Division encourages artifact collectors to work with interested scholars to record their collections in lieu of the Isolated Finds Program.
Please feel free to submit any comments or questions in writing or by e-mail.

Sincerely,


Ryan J. Wheeler, Ph.D.
State Archaeologist and Chief,
Bureau of Archaeological Research

E-mail: rjwheeler@dos.state.fl.us

Guys -- please help by taking a trip around the web to the various forums and either post my letter below or one of your own similar with all the senator's email addresses -- anyone from any state can email on this and should! When you get a Florida Senator's autoresponder with their private or local address -- please take the time to copy your email, slip it into an envelope, and mail it to at least one senator -- they are very unused to this happening and count every letter done this way as 1000 votes . . . Important to spread the word and put the pressure on to get the form back -- or we are all criminals.

June 4 2005

Mr. Ryan J. Wheeler
State Archaeologist and Chief
Bureau of Archaeological Research
rjwheeler@dos.state.fl.us

Dear Mr. Wheeler,

I see that you have adopted a recommendation by the Florida Historical Commission to discontinue the Isolated Finds Program which allowed citizens a legal and secure way to report historic finds from river bottoms throughout the state. I note under the program it is the state's option to keep the find or return it -- no fee paid. Seems a pretty fair deal to me. I wonder if the State Senators on this list realize they've just made 2 million + divers who visit Florida every year law enforcement victims of petty archaeologists who simply cannot sit still for anyone finding anything without a degree . . . They had a legal means of reporting any significant finds -- now -- finds will simply be unreported, the find won't be logged, the site of the find will be unknown to the state, the citizenry will be unwilling to work with the state -- and everyone loses.

I wonder if the State Senators wish to be prosecuted for picking up an old Fanta or Coke bottle (50 years old).

I respectfully ask the Senators on this list to have the Division and Bureau of Archaeological Research continue with the Isolated Finds Form in perpetuity -- or -- start the wheels in motion to cut funding for the Division and Bureau of Archaeological Research. This is the program in question -- and the one that should be preserved so the citizenry can work with the state: http://www.flheritage.com/archaeology/underwater/finds/

As a side note on archaeologists -- and I have known many -- I have never known a single one that did not have significant artifacts in their personal possession and collection at home . . . Not a single one. And now -- we are opening prosecution of citizens for picking up anything from rusted square nails to old Coke bottles -- and don't let anyone tell you this isn't the road we're on by discontinuing that form.

Sincerely,


Matt Mattson

P.O. Box 5226
Spring Hill, Fl 34611
flagold@gate.net

CC: file
alexander.jd.web@flsenate.gov
argenziano.nancy.web@flsenate.gov
aronberg.dave.web@flsenate.gov
atwater.jeff.web@flsenate.gov
bennett.mike.web@flsenate.gov
bullard.larcenia.web@flsenate.gov
campbell.walter.web@flsenate.gov
carlton.lisa.web@flsenate.gov
clary.charlie.web@flsenate.gov
constantine.lee.web@flsenate.gov
cowin.anna.web@flsenate.gov
crist.victor.web@flsenate.gov
dawson.mandy.web@flsenate.gov
portilla.alex.web@flsenate.gov
dockery.paula.web@flsenate.gov
fasano.mike.web@flsenate.gov
garcia.rudy.web@flsenate.gov
geller.steven.web@flsenate.gov
haridopolos.mike.web@flsenate.gov
hill.anthony.web@flsenate.gov
jones.dennis.web@flsenate.gov
king.james.web@flsenate.gov
klein.ron.web@flsenate.gov
lawson.alfred.web@flsenate.gov
lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov
lynn.evelyn.web@flsenate.gov
margolis.gwen.web@flsenate.gov
miller.lesley.web@flsenate.gov
peaden.durell.web@flsenate.gov
posey.bill.web@flsenate.gov
pruitt.ken.web@flsenate.gov
saunders.burt.web@flsenate.gov
sebesta.jim.web@flsenate.gov
siplin.gary.web@flsenate.gov
smith.rod.web@flsenate.gov
schultz.debbie.web@flsenate.gov
wilson.frederica.web@flsenate.gov
wise.stephen.web@flsenate.gov

________________________________________________________________________________________
I anchored this topic and archived the last one to keep this one clean so people can copy and post it on other forums or email it. All responses to the old topic are below, and if you want to reply to this one -- simply start a new topic on it -- I will be leaving shortly, so it is up to you folks to carry the water and get the word out. GOOD LUCK!

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michael34786
unregistered user
06-03-05, 09:12 AM (MDT)

1. "RE: Florida Isolated Finds Form -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #0

Damm, I hate those forms, you know how many forms I have to fill out for just my pulltabs.


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Kent
Member since 3-13-05
33 posts 06-03-05, 10:54 AM (MDT)

2. "RE: Florida Isolated Finds Form -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #1

Good old F.S. 267. Been a couple of years since I`ve read through it. Looks like that`s it. `...removal of artifacts from river bottoms and OTHER SOVEREIGN SUBMERGED LANDS...`(don`t rule out surface finds either). Kinda covers all the bases. Now read up on what the State considers an `artifact` in some of the links. Yup...even the word `coin` pops up. It`s sad to see this happen. Think of the 1000`s of people that collect shells,rocks,fossils,points,shark teeth,bits of bone,petrified wood and such. Think of all the information that will not be shared by forcing collectors completely underground. What a loss for ALL of us...not just the State. Expect the FWC (Florida Wildlife Commission) to enforce this with a heavy hand.


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Marv
unregistered user
06-03-05, 05:22 PM (MDT)

3. "RE: Florida Isolated Finds Form -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #1

A very interesting thought. Mike if every one in Florida that owned a detector filled out an isolated form for finding a very rare pop top could we insist that the State investigate every one reported? HMMMMM I wonder.


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
-- Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.


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FISHEYE46
unregistered user
 06-16-05, 10:45 PM (MDT)
 
1. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #0
 
   i guess the state of florida has now changed all us treasure hunters into amateur marine archaeologists.an those that dont want to be a archaeologist can just be a pirate.


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alan b
Member since 9-23-05
159 posts		 12-12-05, 09:33 AM (MDT)
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2. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #1
 
   The state of Florida needs to take charge of the issues at hand! These issues need to be publicized in a newspaper,so all the tax paying citizens know what these new laws :Isolated Finds Program: mean and how they affect each and everyone of us! Do you think a citizen of Florida would vote on a new BILL or LAW that would have every man,woman and child arrested for picking up a sharks tooth,or sea shell or a coin off the beach! H-ll NO they wouldn't. So why has the :Isolated Find Program: been discontinued! Because 90%of the public knows nothing about what happening here!This law affects everyone,and the law needs to see that the public knows this before laws are set in motion.This is how state and National parks are formed,before the fact!Then public grounds become State restricted proprety.No one knows until they see the BIG GREEN sign. We do not need a Archaeological law enforcement! We allready have paid law enforcement! It's works just fine,and has for two hundred years. Our rights to find objects on the beach and in the water has harmed no one. I've never heard a complaint yet from a citizen for metal detecting on a beach. They allways say: I've wanted to do that all my life.If metal detecting or just walking along beach hunting is a crime. Then we better get to voting quick like.If we the citizens tax paying citizens lose our rights,there gonna be hard to get back! As far as our historical sites,the Indain mounds ,Battle sites, the shipwrecks,these sites, again sites!! They need protection we all agree! We the citizens will see the beaches and the finds stay open to the public!
I would like to invite Governor Bush his wife and children to join me at Vero Beach.I have 4 metal detectors,and would be honored to get the family started.Then stand by while they have the time of their life.

It doesn't pay to be lucky at cards,if the men you beat wind up sitting on your jury!


Alan Brady alanbrady7@hotmail.com


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DragonOfGaea
unregistered user
 12-22-05, 08:30 AM (MDT)
 
3. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #2
 
   They are being stupid discontinuing that..hows a amauter(sp) archaeologist/metal detector going to get feild experince for the real world now?
Alll have is some pot shards that i took while working at a state park cause they are so thick that the frekin mower kicks them up and the rangers throw them away!


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Matt Mattsonmoderator
Member since 4-21-02
1846 posts		 02-21-06, 08:07 AM (MDT)
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4. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #3
 
Marv found an article that might have something to do with all this:

Local librarians also concerned with plans to dismantle State Library

The Florida Library Association is strongly opposed to plans for the elimination of the State Library of Florida, with many librarians across the state also joining the campaign to save the State Library.

"We remain committed to the provision of information to the people of Florida and the preservation of our state's cultural heritage and history," the Florida Library Association noted in a recent e-mail to the Florida legislature. "The Florida Library Association stands ready to work in partnership with all levels of government to ensure the appropriate provision of information resources for the people of Florida."

Governor Jeb Bush signaled the dismantling of the State Library when he released his 2003-2004 budget for the state in early February, to help offset the state's budget shortfall.

The plans for dismantling the State Library of Florida include the following:

*The collections of the State Library of Florida, currently under the Bureau of Library and Network Services will be sent somewhere other than where they are currently housed in the R.A. Gray Building in Tallahassee;

*The state archives, currently under the Bureau of Archives and Records Management, will be transferred to the Department of Environmental Protection;

*The records management function, currently under the Bureau of Archives and Records Management, will be transferred to the Department of Management Services;

*The functions of the Bureau of Library Development will be reorganized and be part of an entity within the newly created Department of State and Community Partnerships; and

*Fifty-five full-time positions will be eliminated, yet the administration suggests that all "salient functions" will continue.
_______________________________________

So it may be these bullcrap archeologists will be off our backs, out of power, and applying for work shortly . . . Hope and pray.


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Marv
unregistered user
 03-11-06, 05:01 PM (MDT)
 
5. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #4
 
   When something changes at the state level it never changes for the betterment of the citizen. Let us all hope this will improve the system. As for the library systen there is a book in the Gray building that I have been wanting to read. There is no inter library loan on the book and it isn't on the net. To read it I have to go to Tallahassee,so much for the system sharing historical information with a citizen. Lets all hope for a better system.


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Marv
unregistered user
 08-25-06, 06:08 PM (MDT)
 
6. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #5
 
   Matt I got to say it you called this one. It now is a first degree misdemeanor to even pick up and look at an artifact. Every one needs to read Statute 267 in its entirety. It does not state what an artificate is. It does not state what is of an historical nature nor is there a cut off age as to what would or would not be. It leans heavly on some very heavy laws as to punish and put the fear of any one finding anything if they choose to do so. I can picture some good old buba boy working for the SRMD or the parks system just flat out making my life nsaty. i have never understood how the DHR or the AS can make up and interpret their own laws withouy being held acountable. The DHR has over 13 million dollars a year coming in from grant money. Amazing. Our river and cave divers from out of state that bring in a lot of tourist dollars are realy going to get wacked and blindsided. Marv


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Marv
unregistered user
 10-21-06, 10:56 AM (MDT)
 
7. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #6
 
   UP Date. Had the oppertunity last week to talk to a person running for the senate and explained our problem. He didn't like what he heard and advised to wait until the elections are over and then contact all legislatures afterwards with a complaint and to also complain to the state attorny and fill out a form to have the Division of Natural Resources investigated. I won't list his name here now beacuse of the elections but he sure didn't like what is going on. So lets all keep the faith and hope for the best. Marv.


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r49miner
Member since 8-11-06
1023 posts		 10-28-06, 10:50 AM (MDT)
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8. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #7
 
   I know of at least three treasure sites it's now on, I put them there.


Good luck and may your face mask never leak, your wet suit never tears and the bottom of your pan always shows gold.


Chuck The Miner


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smokey
unregistered user
 11-13-06, 05:09 PM (MDT)
 
9. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #8
 
   matt, i've been reading your board for some time now and posted a few times, this topic about isolated finds is one i've been following for some time. i have a very good friend that lost his job week before last for owning an arrowhead (yes, owning) and giving it to, what he though was a school teacher. heres the short story.


<<<<<<<Smokey, here is a long story short. About 5 months ago I recieved an email from someone named Whit inquiring about an arrowhead I had for sale on eBay. She claimed she was a 4th grade school teacher from the Orlando area that was doing a school project on native americans and wanted to learn more about arrowheads etc and wanted some info on one I had up for auction. I told her not to bid on any as I would give her 1 to help her with her project.

She kept emailing me for several months asking me to take her kayaking so she could see how I did it and kept asking about a few points I had on eBay for sale which I once again told her please don't bid as I would be very happy to just give her one. A few more weeks whet by and the Spirit of the Suwannee show was coming up and I invited her to come up and I would show her around and introduce her to some other of my fellow collectors. She came up and I showed her around, noticing she kept asking me how you tell the difference between a land find and a water find but never thinking twice about it.
Couple more weeks go by and she calls saying her boss had given her half a day off and she could come up and get a point. I told her just drive to my house and I would show her my collection and find a point that would work for her. She brought over a very nice project board and a text book she said she was using to teach the class. I gave her a very nice point, one I had turned down offers to sale because I really thought I was doing something nice. She seemed really happy and went on her way...two weeks later I was arrested at work and fired on the spot, issued a search warrent on my house to which they took my computer, kayak, every artifact book I had and my entire collection of artifacts that took me 15 years to aquire as well as my bottle collection. The 'teacher" was and under cover agent of the DEP and was wired at the show as well as at my house. Getting me on tape telling her what beach the arrowhead was found on. I have 5 misdameaner charges as well as 5 felony charges against me right now including the felony charge of trafficking stolen state property for the arrowhead i GAVE her.

I have about lost all faith in our government. Hope this story can help others as well and bring me some help in my case to find these people who think we work for them instead of the other way around. Dave>>>>>>>>>>>

this is the crazyist thing i've heard happen to anyone. this may be the time to challenge the law on isolated finds.


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smokey
Member since 11-13-06
8 posts		 11-28-06, 02:42 PM (MDT)
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10. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #9
 
   if anyone would like to help with the battle in florida over the IFP here a link where everyone is coming together. join this site and help with some good advice. i know there are some on here that want this fixed. thanks,
Smokey

http://www.artifactsguide.com/discus/index.html


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smokey
Member since 11-13-06
8 posts		 11-29-06, 06:00 AM (MDT)
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11. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #10
 
   heres a new paper article about daves arrest......matt if i'm steppin on any toes, let me know


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Matt Mattsonmoderator
Member since 4-21-02
1846 posts		 11-29-06, 08:18 AM (MDT)
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12. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #11
 
"matt if i'm steppin on any toes, let me know"

Not at all -- you did the exact right thing by posting that here as did Steve Phillips for his case. We've won two of these things thusfar (my case in Oregon, Steve's in Alabama) by organizing many different agenda communities and fighting (taking no plea deals, etc., and making things highly public (they hate that). So don't let them bar b que this man in public - get that web board organized (everything organized no foul-mouth rants allowed, etc., ) and everything goes to the press every step of the way and out in the open.

On the legislative side -- if a list can be assembled of people we can target -- at that point we'll get a letter/email/phone call bombardment going as we did for Steve's case from all the various websites we can muster (we posted his stuff over at Fisher's as well).

This is the right time to make a change -- new legislature and governor coming in. Let's do it.

If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom, go
home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsels or arms. Crouch down
and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen.
-- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1,
1776.


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smokey
Member since 11-13-06
8 posts		 11-30-06, 01:28 PM (MDT)
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13. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #12
 
   thanks matt,do you have a short story about what happend to you, if so would you mind if i posted it on the board thats getting people together


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Matt Mattsonmoderator
Member since 4-21-02
1846 posts		 11-30-06, 01:49 PM (MDT)
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14. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #13
 
Both mine and Steve's case is on page 4 of the archives and works backwords 4-3-2. Certainly OK to read and get ideas from, but probably not good to plaster all that up in the current case at the current website, as it may be the template followed (it works).

A lot of people are pitching in behind the scenes and publicly -- a great thing to see!

I have registered over there but have not posted -- still working the emails hard.

MM

If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom, go
home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsels or arms. Crouch down
and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen.
-- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1,
1776.


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smokey
Member since 11-13-06
8 posts		 11-30-06, 03:27 PM (MDT)
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15. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #14
 
   thanks matt for the help, and letting me post this on your board.


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Matt Mattsonmoderator
Member since 4-21-02
1846 posts		 11-30-06, 03:59 PM (MDT)
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16. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #15
 
Glad to do it. I have made a topic below for information related to his case. Tell people to keep it up to date. The state hates publicity -- so give them a bucketfull of it on as many sites, as possible. The web is more valuable tool than newspapers -- relentlessly get the word out.

If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom, go
home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsels or arms. Crouch down
and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen.
-- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1,
1776.


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insider
Member since 7-22-07
4 posts		 07-25-07, 09:10 AM (MDT)
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17. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #16
 
   Archaeologists are nothing but grave robbers with college degrees! What makes them so much better than everyone else? I don't need a college degree to say "I'm smart". I've read more books than most college students, and have 10 diplomas, and always fill in my holes.
So what is up with the big land grab? Sounds like there is a deeper under-lying agenda at work here. I think they are pissed because we're finding better stuff than they are.


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muggoo
Member since 10-28-09
58 posts		 12-13-09, 05:20 AM (MDT)
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18. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #1
 
   any one hear about Tom Massie getting fined 500 dollars.he was filming a gold fever show wiht the crew and found a musket in a river.do remember what river he was in but they took the musket back and fined him for stealing historical oh cant come up with the word but you guy get it..in order to go did up american history now you have to have a arc licesen....makes me wounder what they will take away nxt.


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russau
Member since 7-9-03
4998 posts		 12-13-09, 05:54 AM (MDT)
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19. "RE: FLORIDA ISOLATED FINDS DISCONTINUED -- IMPORTANT!"
In response to message #18
 
   it was Perry Massie (not Tom.) and Steve Phillips (Birmingham Alabama)(southern skin divers)they fought it in court and won. it seems that the Alabama Govenor was a skin diver aswell. the state geologists got fired and the laws were reworded.as it turned out these state boys were keeping a few of the good peices for their own at home! it is here on this site. check the archeives.

russau


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