Hungarian Riffles

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Hungarian Riffles

Postby Ornery Cuss » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:45 pm

Hey Guys,

I'd like to hear opinions from you ole salts, on modifying my 10" wide 30" long river sluice. :lol:

As the box stands now, it has 4 standard riffles with large expanded metal behind them ( the type of expanded that you may walk on on a catwalk), I'm considering adding a metal piece with just a bit of over hang on some of the 4 riffles, essentially turning them into Hungarian type riffles just to add a little more hiding space.
Not sure to do all or some of or none of the riffles. :?:

Thoughts.....


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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Bonaro » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:27 pm

I personally don't care for expanded metal. It looks to be the ideal riffle material with plenty of places for the gold to get caught. However, close examination will show that there are airspaces under the expanded that allow the water to flow under the "riffle" and blow out anything that may be caught.

There is a exact formula to the height and spacing of riffles depending on water flow and type of material fed. If you want the absolute best sluice intel, read and understand this document... consider it to be the gospel
http://emrlibrary.gov.yk.ca/ygs/mining_ ... covery.pdf
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Hoser John » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:33 am

Happy Holdays OC- At my last count,between a half dozen vendors, there were over 1,000 configurations,heights and weaves of expanded metals. I've tried many but only a couple worked worth a darn in my eyes. It's all in your perception of what good is. For a sluicebox quite a few work ok but dredgebox altogether different dynamics as low flow vs massive flow creates a completely different world. Plenty of studies done Clarkson and others. What works under tightly controlled conditions doesn't jive with a live free flowing stream. When you say behind the 4 riffles do you mean under? If so what do you consider standard riffles,as in ol'school hungarian L style to seal to very small expanded?? What style do you want to add? John
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Joe S (AK) » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:35 am

Hey there, OC!

... on modifying my 10" wide 30" long river sluice.

I guess the best way to approach this is from a historical standpoint - and then kind of put a spin on everything based on any personal knowledge 'stuff' that might have accumulated, through trial and error, over the years.

In-stream sluice boxes are very dependent on stream flow and volume - and as such need to get 'down and dirty' quickly to be able to recover the Gold during the few seconds that the slurry spends traveling through the box. Any free Gold (not stuck / cemented to gravel with clay) will drop blindingly fast. That is for any sized pieces, minute to large, in the water-thinned slurry.

Back in "the olden days" the "Carpet" really was carpet and the riffles were anything that presented a dead spot for Gold to drop and be caught into. Not very efficient - but then it was all virgin ground to work. Catching the large and disregarding the small sizes of Gold meant that for that time era it was all that was wanted. Rocks, logs, rail road rails and angle iron all ""worked"" to the standards of the time.

Then Clarkson, Polling and others in the Yukon came up with a better idea. Expanded over Miners' Moss with MUCH better recover percentages. Even scaling that concept down to smaller sluices (like "The Pop and Sons") was much, much better.

Then, of course, the Le Trap (and later the G-1) came along and turned recovery into just drops for the Gold to fall into - allowing the lighter materials to just wash through. No carpets and no expanded metal but needing no more volume than a single shoveler can produce. (also able to be 'flooded' with too much material being shoveled in :o )

Then the Keene Wonder Mat came out just about the time that Gold Hog began production with it's ongoing program of mat development. Gold Hog mats require a fair amount of water flow - but with careful selection the mats can can work quite well in-stream. They handle an amazing volume of material but do need a certain volume and speed of water.

Now, each and every "improvement" has it's good and not-so-good sides. In the realm of small in-stream sluices that are relatively simple to operate pretty much comes down to:

One time costs

Efficiency in recovery

Volume of material processed over time with the water conditions to process it

The ability to process the material to leave just the Gold and other heavies in the box

The convenience, volume of concentrates and the speed of cleanups

Everyone has their personal preferences based on what works for certain (their own specific) circumstances. Usually an "Old Salt" decides to experiment with the newer "stuff" and progresses only to a point of comfort based on individual circumstances and successes. Dredgers have very different needs from in-stream guys, and so, to stay focused on in-stream sluices, there are a few (OK, Hoser did mention 1,000 styles of expanded :shock: ) different combinations that could work for you.

Shoveling directly into your sluice box means that there will be a wide range of slurry sizes. To add a variable you need to determine how much water and the flow speed you'll be able to get going through the box.

In my opinion the riffle over flattened expanded over Miners' Moss is the easiest and most forgiving to use over a wide range of in-stream circumstances. Pretty good (but not exceptional) recovery.

To me, the "Hand Wringing" over 'migration losses' under the metal riffles' just hasn't been a demonstrated problem. Yes, a little water goes under the riffle's bottom edge - however there isn't the flow / pressure to blast the Gold along through the protected areas on the back side of the riffles. I feel that a 100% seal under the riffle is unrealistic and not really needed - especially considering that another riffle is right behind the one before it.

As a practical test of this idea - watch a piece of Gold in water flow on an uncarpeted and unprotected sluice floor (or on, say, a Miller Table). Just as in a stream bed the Gold is difficult / slow to move (if it wasn't all the Gold would have been washed into the oceans a long time ago).

Again, In my opinion if you have the luxury of pretty good water volume and quite a bit of speed, the Gold Hog mats would be the way to go. A little expensive to buy (one time expense), they also require internet research to decide which styles you should buy, how to install and then use them. it takes effort on this new technology - *but* - once set up they are the best (again my opinion) for any style sluice box. Recovery is exceptionally good for all size Gold and it has the ability to process as much material as a single shoveler can (reasonably) put through it. Clean-up has a very low volume of concentrates and is really fast. By just saving the concentrates in a bucket to keep on going will result in processing a lot more material over your shoveling day. Investing viewing time in the Gold Hog videos is something that I highly recommend (good general information usable by anyone using any sluicing equipment)

As an aside - save that bucket of concentrates until the end of the day and then slowly re-run it through the box on your last run of the day. If you have a good set-up you will re-recover -*all*- the Gold and further process / pass through almost all the lighter materials (like black sands) through the recovery areas and out the back.. If you are unsure about this procedure just save all the processed-through-the-box concentrates on that last run. Pan them separately and see the results. :?:

Joe
Last edited by Joe S (AK) on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby russau » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:44 am

Now theres some good advice !
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Ornery Cuss » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:12 pm

Thanks you ole salts,

Yes Russ there is some REAL good information within.
Bonaro is correct about the expanded not sealing to the rubber mat that I use. I will look at the link you provided, thank you.

Let me reask the question differently.

The box I use is an old ProMack box that was giving to me and have used for many years with much success.
I have made some mods over the years, some good some not so much.
I have square grooved rubber matting under the riffles and expanded section. I nothing under the riffles other than the mat.

What I'm thinking about now is moding only the riffles. They are flat to the bottom with a turned up rise or break to force the water/material up and over, only a 1/2" rise.
My thought was to add a small piece to the top of the riffle to make a table top or Hungarian type top say 1/8" or 3/16" wide to allow a little more hiding room behind the riffle for the heavies to hide in.
Would it be worth my time and effort to do just the riffles ?
All material is classified to 1/2" before being processed.

I'm not crazy about the expanded, my thinking is, the heavies should not make it that far, yes no ?

I had gone out with a partner we used his box that utilized a Hungarian style riffle that got me to thinking about my box.

What I really should do is just buy a new box with all the modern amenities and move on, but.....

Thanks you guys for the brain trust.
Russ, is it possible to add pics on this site, if so how ?

As HoJo says Happy Holidays.
Slow down and enjoy the time (if you can). :lol:


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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Hoser John » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:50 am

Your idea will definately help as you've retained the bottom lip to help seal and your riffles are then like a modified hungarian utilized in dredging with the ol'school hungarian lip on the bottom somewhat like a backwards L. Seen before and works just fine in both dredges and sluices. I always get a chuckle when I see ol' PESCO,Gold King and Promac pieces out in the field as not in biz for many many years but equipment still lives on. My great Bud Bob still has a 4" Spartan style dredge by Karl Von Mueller from the 70s. OOPS forgot Fieldler-Felder dredges too. John ..Leonard just upped the pic size allowed and I'm horrible at reduction but just go to bottom of post,left click attachment,left click on your computer file in brouse mode,find your pic,left click on it to pick it and left click on download till the file name appears. When writing a story stop typing and add the pic when writing and use inline,then type more and/or add more or just hit save to put at the end.
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby russau » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:54 am

OC why not just make another riffle tray inaddition to the one you currently have? and yes you can post pictures on Leonards site. just goto the lower portion of the reply page and look for the OPTIONS upload attachment and press it. and just go from there.I can only add 1 picture at a time from my pictures but you can keep going back and adding more to the same posting.I did it and im not real good at these darned electronic machines! :oops:
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Ornery Cuss » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:36 pm

Dang, I guess if HoJo and Russ can do it I guess I could figure it out.
What would be the optimal size KB wise to post, resizing is not an issue with Leonards resizing program, done it elsewhere.
I wanted to post a pic of my riffle tray with my thoughts on modifying.

Thanks for the conformation HoJo, I wanted someone with more knowledge and understanding than I, to confirm my thoughts. :idea:

Russ, I have considered fabbing a new riffle section and have considered the new types of matting available, but until the price gets reasonable, I cant justify that kind of money for something that isint used often. It would take me a life time to find that much color to pay for it. :(


Thanks for your time guys,

OC
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Re: Hungarian Riffles

Postby Bonaro » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:15 pm

One question begs to be asked...
You said the box you are working on is an "old promack that was used for many years with much success"

Seems to me if it was producing "much success" then you may be trying to fix something that aint broke... ? ;)
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